Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial MediaResponsive Law
Ethan A. Trice
Hendersonville, NC Lawyer with 2 years of experience
Business, Elder, Estate Planning and Probate
Wake Forest University
I'm an attorney practicing in Western North Carolina and licensed to practice in North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee, and Arkansas. I primarily focus on transactional law and estate planning.
I'm originally from Georgia, but went to Wake Forest for Law School. While at Wake Forest, I was involved in the Moot Court, Public Interest Law Organization, Phi Alpha Delta, and the Federalist Society.
My main practice areas are estate planning, business law, trademarks, and family law. I am a guardian ad litem in several of the counties here in Western North Carolina.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
James Thomas Amburgey
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 17 years of experience
Criminal Defense, DUI & DWI and White Collar Crime
Appalachian School of Law
Thomas Amburgey is a board-certified specialist in state criminal law. As a former prosecutor with the Office of the District Attorney for Buncombe County, he handled thousands of cases, ranging from minor offenses like speeding tickets to capital offenses like first-degree murder. That experience gives him an immeasurable advantage in the courtroom.
Because pleas are often made and charges can be dismissed, many criminal law attorneys only experience a handful of trials in their entire careers. Thomas has successfully completed hundreds of bench trials and dozens of jury trials from both sides of the aisle. Regardless of your charge, Thomas Amburgey...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Brian A. Buchanan
Asheville, NC Attorney with 34 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury and Social Security Disability
Wake Forest University School of Law
In the 30 years since Brian began practicing law, he has gained considerable experience as a trial attorney. The experience he gained early in his career as an insurance defense attorney is extremely beneficial in his representation of people who have been injured or killed because of the negligence of others. Brian has extensive civil litigation experience in state and federal courts, as well as before the Social Security Administration. He has also presented cases before the North Carolina Supreme Court and the North Carolina Court of Appeals.
As a partner at Grimes Teich Anderson LLP, Brian represents clients...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Christopher M. Craig
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 22 years of experience
Business, Insurance Defense and Real Estate
North Carolina Central University School of Law
Craig Associates, PC was founded by attorney Christopher M. Craig to support the administrative and legal needs of growing families & businesses. Estate planning and the laws of inheritance are complex, so we can help simplify the process to ensure your end-of-life preferences, including trusts & wills, are handled effectively. Chris Craig sees clients across Buncombe County, convenient to Biltmore Forest, Black Mountain, Hendersonville, Highlands, Cashiers & other communities in Western NC. The practice provides estate law services, as well as adoption and small business law services. Our proactive approach empowers you to secure and safeguard your most precious assets:...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Blake Marcus
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 10 years of experience
Free ConsultationDUI & DWI
Michigan State University
Blake Marcus graduated from Michigan State University College of Law with honors. During law school, Blake completed an internship with the honorable Michelle M. Rick in the 29th Circuit Court of Michigan. His primary practice area is DWI defense. He has completed the NHTSA DWI Detection and Standardized Field Sobriety Testing Course.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
George Dino Pappas
Hendersonville, NC Attorney with 21 years of experience
(828) 394-2242
475 S Church Street
c/o Sheffron Law Firm, PA
Hendersonville, NC 28792
Immigration
Birkbeck College University of London, Widener University Delaware School of Law and University of London
• DACA - In 2012-2013 I successfully processed over 75 DACA applications in North Carolina, Georgia and South Carolina. Each successful application resulted in my clients obtaining employment authorization leading to the acquisition of a Social Security number and a valid drivers license. These clients no longer live in the shadows of society. • BIA Appeal Success! With only a few hours before my client was scheduled to be deported, I filed an emergency motion with the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) to "stay" his deportation and have my client's matter "re-opened" based on new evidence and...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Andrew Alexander Strauss
Hendersonville, NC Attorney with 45 years of experience
Free ConsultationEstate Planning
Georgetown University Law Center
Andy Strauss is a Board Certified Specialist in Estate Planning & Probate Law. His North Carolina practice includes the full spectrum of complex estate planning, estate tax planning, and asset protection planning. He is a 1978 graduate of Georgetown University School of Law and a member of the North Carolina, Florida, and Pennsylvania State Bars. Andrew is married to Holly and has two daughters: Spencer and Courtney.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jason Craig
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 9 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, DUI & DWI and Traffic Tickets
Charlotte School of Law
Jason Craig is an Attorney for iTicket.law based out of Asheville and personally serves our clients in Avery, Burke, Caldwell, Polk, Rutherford, Transylvania and Watauga Counties. Prior to working with iTicket.law, Jason worked with his father in Alamance County handling criminal and civil litigation. Jason moved to Western North Carolina in 2017 where he began work as a domestic violence and family law attorney with Pisgah Legal Services. Jason continues his work with Pisgah Legal Services as a Mountain Area Volunteer Lawyer (MAVL) helping victims of domestic violence through pro bono representation.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Janet Amburgey
Asheville, NC Attorney with 16 years of experience
Divorce and Family
Appalachian School of Law
Janet Amburgey is a Board Certified Specialist in Family Law. Since graduating from Appalachian School of Law in 2008 she has focused her practice exclusively on family law matters, assisting people through family chaos, ensuring the protection of their rights and property and helping to blend and expand families. She has represented clients in divorce and separation with issues surrounding child custody, child support, alimony, and in property settlement matters. She also assists families through adoption, name changes and protects parents and children in both domestic violence matters and DSS matters. Janet believe’s problem-solving is a primary responsibility...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Anthony Tuorto
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, DUI & DWI and Traffic Tickets
Vermont Law School and Vermont Law School
Anthony Tuorto graduated from Vermont Law School and completed an externship in the Buncombe County Public Defender's Office. Anthony served for several years as an Assistant District Attorney in Henderson, Polk, and Transylvania Counties before entering private practice. His years in the public sector have given him the opportunity to try hundreds of cases, spend countless hours in the courtroom, and develop expertise in all aspects of criminal law.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Christopher Reinhardt
Asheville, NC Attorney with 20 years of experience
Business, Criminal Defense, Divorce and Family
University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
Christopher B. "Chris" Reinhardt is a native and life long resident of North Carolina. He is a second generation attorney, his father being an accomplished real estate attorney in Durham, North Carolina. Chris was admitted to practice in 2003, North Carolina and has practiced in the Asheville area since being admitted. Community: Chris is currently the Legal Counsel for Daniel Boone Council of the Boy Scouts of America serving all of the 14 western most counties of North Carolina. Chris is a Past-President of the Brevard College Alumni Advisory Board, which he has been a member of from...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Eva Clement
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 12 years of experience
Free ConsultationBusiness, Elder, Estate Planning and Real Estate
North Carolina Central University
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Joseph Ferikes
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 50 years of experience
Medical Malpractice, Municipal and Personal Injury
University of Alabama School of Law
Joe Ferikes began his practice in 1974 in Atlanta, Georgia, representing such entities as the County of Dekalb. In 1983, Joe and his wife moved back to their hometown of Asheville to continue his law practice and raise their family. He has been a private practice trial lawyer since 1981, and was a solo practitioner until forming Ferikes & Bleynat in 2001.
Joe’s representative clients include the Towns of Woodfin and Fletcher, North Carolina, as well as the ABC Boards for Fletcher, Woodfin and Black Mountain. Joe has been actively involved in the Greek community and has coached youth sports for...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Matthew Ryan Davis
Hendersonville, NC Lawyer
Free ConsultationDivorce and Estate Planning
I am a US Marine Core veteran committed to protecting your interests and providing excellent service.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jacob Ehrmann
Asheville, NC Attorney with 24 years of experience
Divorce, Family and Juvenile
University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
Jacob Ehrmann is the founding attorney at Montford Family Law. Formerly known as Ehrmann Law Office, Montford Family Law is the partnership of Jacob Ehrmann and Alex Gomes. The firm works exclusively in the area of family law. Jacob received his undergraduate degree in 1995 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he graduated with honors in Public Policy Analysis with an emphasis on race and gender issues. Jacob then received his J.D. from the UNC School of Law in 1999. In 2000, Jacob began his legal career at Pisgah...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
William Lenox Fay
Asheville , NC Lawyer with 18 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense and DUI & DWI
Saint Louis University School of Law
I finished law school in 2005 and immediately opened my own firm in Raleigh, North Carolina. I began my practice taking criminal cases in North Carolina state courts, with matters ranging from simple speeding tickets up to high level felonies. My practice has been a success because I care deeply for my clients, I consistently get them fantastic results, and I create fee structures that people can actually afford. Over my career, I have taught several seminars to other attorneys on how to properly defend criminal and traffic cases, with a significant emphasis on teaching defense of...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ana S. Nunez
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 9 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense and DUI & DWI
North Carolina Central University School of Law
Ana S. Nuñez practices in both our Criminal Defense and our Immigration practice areas. She was recruited from the Public Defender’s office in Wake County. Being an immigrant herself, she understands the importance of having an advocate in your corner when you need it the most. Fluent in Spanish, Ana serves on the Governor’s advisory council on Hispanic/Latino affairs, she has been named a Top 40 Under 40 Attorney by the National Trial Lawyers, and she was recognized with the Citizen Lawyer Award by the NC Bar Association for exemplary public service to her community. She is a graduate of...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Gary Cash
Asheville, NC Attorney with 47 years of experience
Arbitration & Mediation
University of North Carolina School of Law
Gary Cash has over 35 years of legal experience, including 25 spent as a North Carolina District Court Judge. He maintains a private mediation and arbitration practice with offices located in Asheville North Carolina. Gary was first elected to the bench in 1986 and most recently served as Buncombe County’s Chief District Court Judge, a position he held since 2002. Prior to serving as judge, Gary worked in Asheville as a general practitioner in the private practice of law. Gary attended Davidson College, during which time he was an International Rotary Scholar at the University of Meunster in...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Mrs. Katherine B. H. Dare
Arden, NC Attorney with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense
Appalachian School of Law
I am a solo practitioner in Asheville, North Carolina. I serve Buncombe, Henderson, Transylvania and the surrounding Western North Carolina counties. I focus my practice primarily on family law related issues, including divorce, child custody, child support, domestic violence, and criminal law related issues including traffic and juvenile matters.
Claimed Lawyer Profile
David G Gray
Asheville, NC Attorney with 51 years of experience
Free ConsultationBankruptcy
University of North Carolina School of Law
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Tod M. Leaven
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationUniversity of North Carolina School of Law
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Senta F. Rhodes
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 16 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury
The Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law
Senta Rhodes is an experienced trial attorney whose practice area focuses on personal injury and workers' compensation law. She is admitted to practice in North Carolina, The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and The State of Maryland. Before Senta joined Grimes Teich Anderson LLP, she was an Assistant District Attorney in the Major Felony Crimes Division in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where she prosecuted more than 20 jury trials and 50 bench trials.
Senta is experienced in gathering evidence, examining experts and negotiations, and she puts those skills to work for her clients who deserve justice for their injuries and protection from insurance companies....
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Brian F Davis
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 32 years of experience
1 North Pack Square
Suite 412
Asheville, NC 28801
Free ConsultationLegal Malpractice, Personal Injury and Products Liability
Wake Forest University School of Law
Brian is a Western North Carolina native, having been born and raised in Asheville. He attended Enka High School and then UNC-Chapel Hill for college. Brian attended Wake Forest University School of Law. After passing the Bar Exam, Brian practiced law in the Raleigh area, focusing his practice on serious personal injury, catastrophic injury cases, and wrongful death cases, for almost 20 years. He then moved his family and his law practice back to Asheville. Brian is an aggressive litigator who enjoys trying cases in the courtroom. He is very direct with his clients and with opposing counsel, does not...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Sam B Craig
Asheville, NC Lawyer
Business, Construction, Insurance Claims and Real Estate
University of South Carolina School of Law
Craig Law Firm, PLLC, provides legal services, including counsel; document and contract drafting, review, and enforcement; and negotiation and litigation assistance in State and Federal courts, in the following areas of law:
Business Law: We work with small and medium-size business, including start-ups, in their formation, management, and transfer or dissolution. We work with sole proprietors, partnerships, limited liability companies (LLCs), and corporations (S or C designations, and "B" corporations).
Real Estate Law: We work with property owners and occupiers in ownership, leasing, and use issues. We assist in developing lease, purchase or sale, and other agreements. We also work with title,...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Katherine Langley
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 28 years of experience
Business, Divorce and Family
University of Wisconsin Law School
At the family dinner table while I was growing up, we enjoyed vigorous argument and debate as much as the food. Even as a child, I loved finding out all of the facts. Going to law school seemed a natural choice. After graduating, I immediately headed to New York to work for a large, international law firm. I learned a tremendous amount. But something, or someone, was missing. You. And me. I realized that I wanted to be collaborating with my clients, that all those facts, all the research, all the arguments, even the law, only made...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Anna Hamrick
Asheville, NC Attorney with 30 years of experience
Free ConsultationWorkers' Comp
The George Washington University Law School
Anna is a North Carolina native who has been practicing law for more than 23 years. She received a B.A. in English from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1991, and her law degree from George Washington University in 1994. She first became licensed to practice law in Virginia in 1994, followed by Washington, D.C. in 1995.
In 1996, she returned to North Carolina and has been practicing here ever since. She concentrates her practice in the areas of Workers' Compensation and Social Security Disability.
Anna is rated AV Preeminent by Martindale-Hubbell®, the facilitator of a peer review ratings...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ile Adaramola
Asheville, NC Attorney with 11 years of experience
4 Doctors Park
Suite # J2
Asheville, NC 28801
Free ConsultationElder, Estate Planning, Probate and Real Estate
North Carolina Central University School of Law
The Adaramola Firm is a progressive law firm that provides a positive alternative to traditional, expensive, and highly adversarial law firms. We are a transactional and litigation firm offering services in the following practice areas: estates and trusts, business law, real estate law, intellectual property, and estate administration. Ile Adaramola is a friendly, down-to-earth, competent attorney dedicated to using innovative legal concepts to resolving legal issues.
Ile (E-lay) earned a Bachelors of Arts in Criminal Justice and Philosophy with high honors, from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.After receiving her degree, she worked as a real estate paralegal for Shapiro...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&A
Nick Benjamin
Asheville, NC Lawyer
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, DUI & DWI, Real Estate and Traffic Tickets
University of Arkansas - Fayetteville
Nick Benjamin is a former police officer, prosecutor and North Carolina Assistant Attorney General. He has practiced for nearly a decade in Asheville North Carolina. The majority of his time practicing law came as a prosecutor in Buncombe County, where he has prosecuted everything from speeding tickets to first degree murder. Nick left the Buncombe County District Attorney's Office in July 2022 (when he was focusing on violent crimes and firearms offenses) to start his own practice. In addition to an extensive criminal law background which includes over 300 bench trials and over 40 jury trials, Nick was an assistant...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Susan Christie Ciaravella
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 20 years of experience
Divorce, Domestic Violence and Family
Loyola University New Orleans
BIOGRAPHY
Susan earned a B.A. in Psychology at Southern Methodist Universtiy in Dallas, Texas and went on to attend Loyola University New Orleans, School of Law, graduating in the top of her 2003 law school class. Susan began her legal training during law school working as a law clerk in the civil insurance defense and criminal practice areas.
Following licensure by the Louisiana State Bar in 2003, she began a private law practice in New Orleans where she focused exclusively on Criminal Law. She has gained extensive trial experience working for over 15 years as a litigator the private and public...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ruth C Smith
Asheville, NC Attorney with 25 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury, Social Security Disability and Workers' Comp
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial MediaResponsive Law
Adam Bull
Asheville, NC Attorney with 31 years of experience
DUI & DWI, Divorce, Family and Personal Injury
University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
Over 28 years of experience representing clients and assisting them in resolving their legal matters. We have the knowledge skill and expertise to tackle even the most complex cases. I understand that being involved in legal matters and having to call an attorney can be a confusing and daunting task. We are here to assist you, to answer your questions and to guide you through the legal process and to make it as easy and quick as possible.
We will not give you advice that merely prolongs the matter and increases your costs. I recognize...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Andrew Atherton
Asheville, NC Attorney with 23 years of experience
48 Patton Avenue
Asheville, NC 28801
Elder, Estate Planning and Social Security Disability
Salmon P. Chase College of Law, Northern Kentucky University
Andrew D. Atherton practices Elder and Special Needs Law with McGuire, Wood & Bissette, P.A., where his practice focuses on developing and implementing comprehensive personal estate plans, assisting clients in navigating the estate administration and probate process, advising clients on how to deal with the costs of long-term care, Veterans Administration Benefits, Medicare, Medicaid, guardianship and Special Needs Trusts. Mr. Atherton completed a clerkship with the Kentucky Supreme Court. He earned his undergraduate degree in Business Economics from Western Kentucky University and law degree from the Salmon P. Chase College of Law at Northern Kentucky University. He...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Susan Waller Ramos
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 24 years of experience
Immigration
St. Mary's University School of Law
Susan Waller Ramos is a graduate of Emory University, where she earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology and Spanish, and St. Mary’s University School of Law. She is licensed to practice law in North Carolina, Texas, and New Mexico (currently inactive), and began practicing immigration law in 2003. Ms. Ramos is fluent in Spanish and assists individuals, families, and employers in connection with assessing available U.S. immigration options. Ms. Ramos’ practice includes preparing and filing individual, family-based, and employment-based petitions, immigrant and nonimmigrant visa applications, and waivers of inadmissibility. She assists with complex consular processing...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&A
Cheryl R. Watkins,
Asheville, NC Attorney with 20 years of experience
(704) 544-3394
28 Schenck Parkway, Building 2B
Suite 200
Asheville, NC 28803
Estate Planning and Probate
University of Southern California Gould School of Law
The Law Office of Cheryl R. Watkins is a boutique estate law practice serving all 100 counties of North Carolina representing individuals, families, and small businesses in the provision of advice, counsel, and results in the following areas of law:
- Estate Administration (Probate Law)
- Estate Planning (Wills, Trusts, Powers of Attorney, Living Wills, etc.)
- Business Succession Planning
- Wrongful Death
Attorney Cheryl R. Watkins of The Law Office of Cheryl R. Watkins has a practice concentration in Estate Planning and Probate and has worked in those fields for over 20 years as a former CPA, auditor, Assistant Clerk,...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Bradford Searson
Asheville, NC Attorney with 37 years of experience
Free ConsultationMedical Malpractice, Nursing Home and Personal Injury
Emory University School of Law
My practice focuses on the representation of individuals and families dealing with the aftermath of severe injury and loss, including death. I have extensive experience with complex medical issues in personal injury and medical malpractice cases. Our firm consists of four experienced trial lawyers and a remarkably talented and devoted support staff.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Christian Connolly
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 13 years of experience
Personal Injury and Social Security Disability
Roger Williams University School of Law
Christian has always had a passion for protecting the rights and interests of those seeking justice. While injured clients are now the focus of his personal injury and social security disability practice, Christian was previously an immigration attorney and he was an Asylum Officer with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. In those capacities, he adjudicated refugee claims for people fleeing their home countries as the result of brutal violence and persecution.
Christian understands that bad things happen to good people. He knows that when people become injured because of the negligence of others, they need an attorney who knows how...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ronald Moore
Asheville, NC Attorney
Medical Malpractice, Personal Injury and Workers' Comp
Attorney Ron L. Moore is licensed to practice in all North Carolina State Courts and the US District Court in the Western District of North Carolina. Ron is a member of the North Carolina Bar Association (Workers’ Compensation Section), Buncombe County Bar Association, North Carolina State Bar, and The North Carolina Advocates for Justice. He is also an approved attorney for Lawyers Title of North Carolina, Investors Title Insurance Company, Commonwealth Land Title Company of North Carolina, Stewart Title Company, The Title Insurance Company of North Carolina, and Attorneys Title. Additionally, Mr. Moore is a Certified Mediator in Industrial Commission...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
James O. Rice Jr.
Asheville, NC Lawyer with 19 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, DUI & DWI, Domestic Violence and Traffic Tickets
George Mason University School of Law
James O. Rice, Jr. is an experienced criminal defense attorney in Asheville, who can provide you with the strong legal representation you need to fight the charges against you. When your future is on the line, it’s critical that you have someone on your side who will fight zealously for your freedom. Attorney Rice has assisted numerous clients against criminal charges, and can offer you his expertise and resources in order to help you develop a solid legal defense against the prosecution. Attorney Rice has experience with a variety of criminal law matters in North Carolina, including but not...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Thomas Curry
Hendersonville, NC Attorney with 3 years of experience
14 Towne Place Drive, Suite 210
Hendersonville, NC 28792
Business, Divorce, Family and IP
Charleston School of Law
My name is Tom Curry. I'm a partner at my firm Davis Curry Law where we specialize in Family Law, Criminal, Trademark, and Business law.
I've specialized personally in Trademark and startup law for the past years while also assisting with Family and other cases. As an entrepreneur I've worked with dozens of small and medium businesses on optimizing business structure, terms, contracts, and agreements.
When not practicing, I love playing with anything with an engine.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&A
Larry J. Ford
Hayesville, NC Lawyer with 47 years of experience
(828) 389-3726
46 Church Street Suite 22
PO Box 750 (Mailing only)
Hayesville, NC 28904
Free ConsultationBusiness, Elder, Estate Planning and Probate
Larry J. Ford is an attorney with 47 years of experience whose practice provides legal services to business owners, families, individuals, and retired persons in the following areas: Asset Protection Planning, Business Planning, Corporations, Charitable Trusts, Estate Planning, Federal Tax Planning, Family Limited Partnerships, Limited Liability Companies, Living Trusts, Medicaid Planning, Real Estate, and Wills and Estates.
Ford first practiced law in the Asheville/Hendersonville area, then was in the corporate business and legal arena in Charlotte, NC, prior to returning to Hayesville in 1991. In Charlotte, Ford served as Vice-President/Legal Counsel with two different title insurance companies, and as a...