Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Janice K. Langbehn
Everett, WA Family Law Attorney
Family, Arbitration & Mediation and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
After earning two master’s degrees in Social Work and Public Administration, Janice Langbehn started her career as a social worker for the State of Washington. Upon retiring from social work, Janice became an advocate for the LGBTQ+ community, seeking equal rights and treatment for families regarding hospital visitations. In 2011 her work as an advocate for the LGBTQ+ community was recognized by President Barack Obama who awarded her the second highest civilian honor in the country: the Presidential Citizen's Medal. That same year, she was presented with the National Liberty Award for securing hospital visitation for same-sex couples...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Laura Helen Fitzgibbon
Redmond, WA Family Law Lawyer with 9 years of experience
Free ConsultationFamily, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Laura Fitzgibbon is the owner and managing attorney of Malone Legal, PLLC. Originally born in Ireland, Laura has grown up in the Seattle area and considers herself a Seattleite. She received her bachelor's degree in political science and philosophy from Gonzaga University and her law degree from Seattle University School of Law.
Laura has a background in litigation and has spent the majority of her career directly in the courtroom. After graduating from law school, she became a public defender in Island County before switching sides to prosecution. Laura practiced as a criminal prosecutor for several years, which provided her extensive...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Vicki Oslund
Everett, WA Family Law Attorney with 27 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Whittier Law School and Central Washington University
Vicki Oslund has been practicing family law for over 19 years. Vicki is highly regarded for her experience in both the legal and business communities, and for her ability to achieve favorable results for her clients. Vicki represents clients in all family law matters, with a focus on complex divorce cases that involve high value property, business, and financial distributions. Clients who work with Vicki appreciate her meticulous and compassionate guidance. Vicki is a trained mediator and has worked as an arbitrator with the Snohomish County Superior Court. She holds an MBA and worked as a corporate negotiator. She is...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Molly Kenny
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 44 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Domestic Violence
University of Dayton School of Law
Molly Kenny, who grew up in the Midwest and has been licensed to practice law since 1980, has always had a passion for practicing law.
Molly completed her undergraduate studies at Michigan State University. Upon graduating with honors, she attended law school at Ohio's University of Dayton, where she was an editor on the law review and published 2 articles. She received her Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree and graduated cum laude.
Yearning for adventure, she moved west immediately upon graduation. After clerking for a federal judge in Portland, Oregon, she relocated to Seattle and worked at the Public Defender's office where she...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Yale Lewis III
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 21 years of experience
Free ConsultationFamily, Divorce and Native American
University of Washington School of Law
Mr. Lewis has been litigating family and Indian law matters since 2003. He tries up to six cases per year and represents three times that many at settlement conferences and meditations. He has been appointed a special master and sometimes conducts meditations. He also handles appeals.
Mr. Lewis appears regularly in King County Superior Court and less frequently in other counties throughout the State. He is a member of the bar of most of the tribal courts in the State of Washington. He also practices in the United States District Court for the Eastern and Western Districts. He is also a...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&A
Stacie Lynn Naczelnik
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 12 years of experience
Family, Divorce, Domestic Violence and Estate Planning
Seattle University School of Law
Finding the right attorney to work with is important -- when it comes to your legal case, one size does not fit all. My firm offers alternative legal services by providing you with legal advice and guidance through the court process. When possible, I offer flat fees so that you know how much your case will cost without having to worry about unpredictable hourly bills.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Matthew J. Yetter
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 17 years of experience
Free ConsultationFamily, Divorce, Domestic Violence and Personal Injury
Willamette University College of Law
I enjoy helping people out, and my career as a divorce, custody, and personal injury attorney allows me to do just that. Clients need someone who they are comfortable around and who they can trust. I understand that family matters are deeply personal and that you are a real life person and not just another case.
I am the owner and lead attorney at Seacoma Law, PLLC with offices in Tacoma and Seattle. If you are looking for compassionate, candid, and personalized advice, you have come to the right place.
I have represented hundreds of clients...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
J. Mark Weiss
Seattle, WA Family Law Lawyer with 37 years of experience
(206) 622-6707
100 West Harrison Street, South Tower, Suite 470
Seattle, WA 98119
Free ConsultationFamily and Arbitration & Mediation
Lewis & Clark Law School and University of Washington School of Law
Mark works as a separation and divorce mediator to help his clients reach solid agreements by working together. He helps his clients create reality-based agreements that are consistent with their needs, values, and goals, without engaging in the dynamics of the adversarial court system. Mark is particularly experienced and skilled in cases involving businesses and complex property issues, including professional practices, and complex parenting (custody/visitation) matters. He is also certified as a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst(R).
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Jason Benjamin
Everett, WA Family Law Attorney with 29 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Jason Benjamin has spent the past 23 years immersing himself in the intricacies of Family Law and particularly Child Custody cases. He has personally handled more than 1000 cases where child custody is at issue.
He particularly welcomes families who have emergency custody, domestic violence or restraining order issues, as he can typically obtain appropriate orders within hours to protect you and the children.
From the beginning of his legal career, Jason has aggressively advocated on behalf of victims of domestic violence (even when domestic violence was not treated seriously by the courts). He understands the complexities of...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Brien Galbraith
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 17 years of experience
Family, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Golden Gate University School of Law
Brien Galbraith is an associate attorney with Integrative Family Law. Brien accomplishes his clients’ goals by way of positive communication. By speaking with his clients regularly and in detail, Brien is able to understand their goals and set out on a path to achieve them. Brien is experienced in a number of different areas of family law, including custody, support, divorce, relocation, LGBT family law, and more.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Heather C. Ramirez
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 17 years of experience
Family, Elder, Estate Planning and Probate
Seattle University School of Law
After being admitted to the Washington State Bar Association, Ms. Ramirez practiced law in the private sector with emphasis on family law, bankruptcy, estate planning and elder law matters. Ms. Ramirez compassionately advocates on behalf of her clients while she assists them in successfully resolving difficult disputes and navigating through litigation and complex legal issues.
Professional Memberships/Organizations
Ms. Ramirez is licensed to practice in the State of Washington and the United States District Court. She is also a member of the following professional associations:
Washington State Bar Association, Member
King County Bar Association, Member
Tacoma-Pierce County Bar Association, Member
Education
Seattle University School of Law,...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Rick Edward Jones
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 29 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
Rick is a founder and Managing Partner of Goldberg Jones. He continues to provide a level of “hands on” support that is invaluable to each office. His personal integrity and professional ethic largely influence who we hire and how we practice law. One can certainly see Rick’s stamp on nearly every aspect of Goldberg Jones.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Michelle Dellino
Bellevue, WA Family Law Attorney with 15 years of experience
Family, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law and Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law, Arizona State University
Devoted. Prepared. Accessible. Compassionate. Michelle Dellino is the managing attorney at Dellino Family Law Group. At Dellino Family Law Group our practice is results oriented and heavily focused on client communication. We excel at providing aggressive representation when needed or solutions borne of a cooperative approach when appropriate. We provide non-judgmental and efficient representation with an emphasis on achieving client goals through immediate problem solving. The firm was founded by Michelle and on her belief that there is, very simply, a solution to every problem. Her personal practice focuses on complex family law matters including high conflict cases, domestic...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jacqueline Clark
Bellevue, WA Family Law Attorney
Family, Arbitration & Mediation and Divorce
McGill University Faculty of Law
Jacqueline Clark is a licensed Family Law Attorney in both Washington State and in the Province of Ontario, Canada. Jacqueline specializes in highly contentious cases for division of assets including high net worth family businesses and litigating the enforceability of pre-nuptial and settlement agreements. She has appeared in front of the British Columbia Court of Appeals on a Hague Convention Child Abduction Case and was a part of a legal team that took a child custody matter up all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Throughout the course of her career, Jacqueline has become a trained Divorce...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ray S Pollari
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 30 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation and Divorce
Gonzaga University School of Law
Ray Pollari is a well-established family law attorney. He has over 27 years’ experience of litigation and mediation in numerous counties across Washington State. Ray has also served as a C.A.S.A Guardian ad Litem and a Family Law Guardian ad Litem in both Juvenile and Superior Courts. That experience has given him a unique perspective on custody disputes and how the courts view the “best interests” of children. Over the years, Ray has dealt primarily in divorce cases, parentage, and domestic violence. He also has experience with prenuptial contracts, restraining orders, military family law, and parenting modifications. Before Ray...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jason S. Newcombe
Everett, WA Family Law Lawyer with 28 years of experience
Free ConsultationFamily, Criminal Defense, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Boston College
We are a dedicated team of legal professionals who are here to help you in your time of need and crisis. Our Washington State lawyers have the resources, the knowledge, and the experience to assist you with your legal matter in our practice areas.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Alice Bagirova
Bothell, WA Family Law Lawyer with 9 years of experience
22722 29th Dr SE
#100
Bothell, WA 98021
Free ConsultationFamily, Divorce, Domestic Violence and Estate Planning
Seattle University School of Law
Alice Bagirova is a Washington state attorney practicing in King, Snohomish and Pierce Counties. She obtained her juris doctorate degree in law at Seattle University in 2014 and has been building her practice ever since. Prior to passing the bar, Alice: volunteered in a domestic violence clinic at Santa Monica's Courthouse in the state of California; she completed an externship at the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles; worked through the family law fellowship program at East Side Legal Assistance Program (ELAP). For ELAP, Alice represented clients in family law matters and protection order hearings pertaining to Domestic Violence.
Alice’s professional...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Kristofer D. Leavitt
Redmond, WA Family Law Lawyer with 11 years of experience
Family, Divorce and Estate Planning
Indiana University - Indiana University-Bloomington
Leavitt Legal Group is a full-service law firm founded to accomplish a single goal: deliver unmatched results to our clients regardless of their legal needs. At Leavitt Legal Group we understand that when our clients come to us with their legal problems they are trusting us to help them navigate a complex and often confusing legal system. For this reason, Leavitt Legal Group focuses on providing straightforward, common-sense counsel to our clients in order to help them understand their legal options as well as more fully understand the legal process they are facing. Counseling with our...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Andrew May
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 22 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation and Divorce
University of Maryland - Baltimore
Andrew has been a member of the Washington State Bar Association for over 15 years and is an associate attorney at Envision Family Law. For the past decade, he has exclusively practiced in the area of family law to include divorce and custody cases. His wide-ranging background of litigation experience is extensively combined with years of knowledge as a skilled mediator.
Prior to entering law school, Andrew graduated from Dartmouth College with a degree in political science. From there, he continued his journey into the legal profession at the University of Maryland School of Law, graduating at the top 10% of...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Mark Cassell
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 8 years of experience
Family, Criminal Defense, Divorce and Domestic Violence
University of Denver
I practice primarily in the areas of family law and criminal defense. I believe in client-centered lawyering. I attempt to form a strong bond and relationship with each client. I believe that cases are a team effort between the firm and the client, where the client is the captain of the ship. I make sure each client is steered in the proper direction to obtain his/her goals. Each case and client is different, and with our help each client can achieve their goals, even in the most difficult of cases.
I earned my J.D. from the University of Denver Sturm College...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Natalie Roberts
Seattle, WA Family Law Lawyer with 15 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Natalie Roberts has spent the entirety of her legal career mastering her skills in family law. She is well distinguished in the legal community and known for her persistent, intelligent and strategic litigation – both in the court room and in negotiations.
When hand-crafting her legal arguments for the court room, Natalie keeps her client’s quality of life and financial stability at the forefront. She understands that every decision/request throughout a case can have major life impacts on her clients such as transporting your children to and from exchanges, ensuring you have enough spousal maintenance to pay your monthly...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Troy Christopher Courage
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 14 years of experience
Family
Seattle University School of Law
Troy was born and raised in Seattle. He has a large extended family living throughout the Puget Sound region and Washington state.
Mr. Courage graduated from Seattle University cum laude, majoring in liberal studies, and earing two minors, psychology, and French. Mr. Courage studied in Grenoble, France, in an immersive French program during his senior year at Seattle University.
After working for several years in the field of sales, Mr. Courage attended law school. After graduating from law school Mr. Courage volunteered with the King County Bar Association’s Family Law Mentorship program. The family law mentorship program is where Mr....
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Ms. Susan S. Kennedy
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 16 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Susan has worked as a family law attorney for over a decade handling all areas of divorce and custody cases. Additionally, she has spent many years as a Guardian ad Litem in Washington. This role required hard work and dedication. During that time, she was called as an expert in several trials. She was subject to cross-examination and highly regarded by judges. As a result, she can process complex situations quickly.
In addition to her experience, Susan takes a realistic approach with her clients. She will provide you with information to make good decisions...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Danielle L. LaBelle
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 13 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Gonzaga University School of Law
Since the day that she became an attorney, Danielle LaBelle has focused her career on family law. Today, her goal is simple: to help families dealing in critical legal circumstances get the patient, caring, and professional guidance that they need. “I want my clients to feel like their voice was heard and their interests were well-represented,” she said.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
David Starks
Kirkland, WA Family Law Lawyer with 27 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
David Starks is a partner at McKinley Irvin and practices out of the firm’s Kirkland office. David is a Fellow of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers as well as the International Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. He has been designated to the list of “Top 100 Attorneys in Washington State,” Washington Super Lawyers®, rated 10/10 “Superb” on Avvo, and was chosen as "Lawyer of the Year" in the field of Family Law by Best Lawyers two times. David is driven by a passion for his client’s success and always fights to protect their best interests.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Nicholas Lovelace-Andrews
Everett, WA Family Law Attorney with 6 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
Nick Lovelace-Andrews specializes exclusively in family law, demonstrating a genuine dedication to assisting individuals navigating various aspects of family legal matters. His practice covers a broad spectrum, including divorce, child custody, LGBTQ family law, and prenuptial agreements. Notably, Nick played a significant role in co-authoring the Marital Agreements chapter in the Washington Family Law Deskbook (3rd ed. 2022), collaborating with Stella Pitts.
Before joining Envision Family Law, Nick served as an associate attorney at S.L. Pitts PC for 3 1/2 years and previously contributed as a volunteer attorney with the Housing Justice Project. He obtained his law degree from Seattle University...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jeremiah Spencer Styles
Everett, WA Family Law Lawyer
Free ConsultationFamily, Criminal Defense, Immigration and Personal Injury
Seattle University School of Law
My practice is designed to be able to deal with the issues that all too often arise and keep people from being able to enjoy their lives
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Patrick Trivett
Marysville, WA Family Law Lawyer with 18 years of experience
Family, Divorce, Estate Planning and Probate
Seattle University
The Law Offices of Patrick M. Trivett, PLLC is a boutique criminal defense and civil litigation firm serving King, Snohomish and Skagit Counties dedicated to zealous client representation and expeditious and creative resolutions.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Michele M. O'Loane
Everett, WA Family Law Attorney with 24 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
I started my own firm over 15 years ago, after five years as a partner and associate attorney at a prominent boutique Family Law firm in Everett, Washington. For over 20 years, I have limited my Family Law practice to Snohomish County where I am uniquely acquainted with Family Law commissioners, attorneys, skilled mediators, and Snohomish County judges.
I have maintained my commitment to the best resolution for my clients, whether in the courtroom or through mediation. I represent clients for divorce and separation, custody/parenting, spousal maintenance/alimony, alimony/spousal maintenance, and modification of court orders.
In addition, I focus on what...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Breanne W. Martin
Arlington, WA Family Law Attorney with 13 years of experience
Family, Divorce, Domestic Violence and Estate Planning
Seattle University School of Law
Breanne W. Martin is a graduate of Seattle University’s joint degree program in which she obtained a Law Degree and a Master of Business Administration. In recognition of her scholastic achievements, Breanne received Dean’s List honors and the CALI Excellence for the Future Award for legal writing. Breanne served as a contributing writer and editor for the Seattle Journal for Social Justice and was an active member of the Student Bar Association, Graduate Student Council, and Women in Business Association. Prior to attending Seattle University, Breanne graduated cum laude from Portland State University earning a Bachelor of Science in...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Brent Bohan
Everett, WA Family Law Lawyer with 14 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Vermont Law School and Vermont Law School
Brent Bohan is a family law and divorce attorney with high energy and a powerful drive to obtain the best possible outcomes for his clients. While running a private practice, Brent discovered his talent for family law. He loves helping people solve problems, and family law provided a challenging and rewarding way to do so. Brent now focuses his practice on family law and divorce, including high asset divorce and LGBT family law. Known for being a tough litigator, Brent combines a talent in the courtroom with his ability to develop productive and friendly relationships with the...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Mark Alexander
Seattle, WA Family Law Lawyer with 35 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Case Western Reserve University School of Law
Seattle Divorce Services is dedicated to conflict resolution in complex cases. Our Seattle divorce attorneys believe that our clients are best served by an approach that reduces fighting and allows for agreement building. In high-conflict cases, our Seattle divorce mediation lawyers work to avoid escalating hostility. This approach is designed to reduce the trauma of the divorce experience and prepare clients to move forward in life, also setting the stage for more successful co-parenting.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Shana Erin Thompson
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 25 years of experience
Family, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Shana E. Thompson has achieved success by listening carefully, understanding her clients’ long-term objectives, and helping resolve dissolutions as amicably and expeditiously as possible.For the past 17 years, Shana E. Thompson has been proudly serving individuals in family law cases throughout the cities of Seattle, Everett, and Kent.
Her client base has been built on hard work and determination that has allowed her to become what she is today. She takes great pride in providing top-level service and promises your complete satisfaction when you choose her to handle your legal needs. Shana and her team...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Rita Herrera Irvin
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 34 years of experience
Family and Divorce
Seattle University School of Law
Rita is a founding partner and CEO of McKinley Irvin. With an eye toward the future, Rita works with the firm's leadership team to maintain McKinley Irvin’s commitment to excellence in law practice, client service, professionalism, and firm management. In addition to her work at McKinley Irvin, Rita is deeply involved in the Tacoma community and has served as a director on several local and professional boards. She currently serves on the Legal Pathways Community Advisory Board and as a Dressel Scholars Mentor at the University of Washington Tacoma. Additionally, Rita founded MI’s Black Law Student Mentorship Program where she...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Bruce Pruitt-Hamm
Seattle, WA Family Law Attorney with 30 years of experience
Family, Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Estate Planning
University of Washington School of Law
Bruce Pruitt-Hamm is an attorney who can litigate, mediate or collaborate.
Litigation- As an attorney with over 20 years experience, Bruce Pruitt-Hamm has been awarded the highest rating by the national lawyer-rating service, Avvo.com. Since graduating in 1994 from the University of Washington School of Law near the top of his class, he has litigated over one thousand cases in a wide variety of areas of the law. Bruce volunteers for the Washington State Bar Association’s “Moderate Means Program“, offering reduced rates to people of moderate means. Bruce’s standard rate is $280/hr.; but he offers discounts for those on legal insurance...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Dimitra S. Scott
Edmonds, WA Family Law Lawyer with 21 years of experience
Family
Seattle University School of Law
Dimitra is the chair of both the Divorce & Family Law and Adoption & Assisted Reproduction practice groups at Beresford Booth PLLC where she brings compassion and a balanced perspective to clients.
In the family formation practice, Dimitra guides adoptive parents and birth parents to find unique solutions to meet each party’s needs. For Assisted Reproduction matters, she represents Intended Parents, Surrogates, and Donors to prepare agreements, review contracts, and obtain parentage orders to create a client’s desired family. Dimitra recognizes that no two clients are the same, no two families are the same, and she strives to understand and support...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Elizabeth Anne Hoffman
Kirkland, WA Family Law Lawyer
Family, Divorce and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Elizabeth A. Hoffman-Graff is an Senior Attorney at McKinley Irvin’s Kirkland office. She practices in all areas of family law, including divorce, domestic violence, unmarried couples, LGBT family law, and more. Elizabeth has been distinguished as a Super Lawyer by Washington Super Lawyers due to her experience, reputation, and consistently exceptional client service.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Kim Laree Schnuelle
Kirkland, WA Family Law Lawyer with 33 years of experience
Family, Divorce and Domestic Violence
University of Washington School of Law
Kim Schnuelle is a Senior Attorney at McKinley Irvin, one of the Pacific Northwest’s premier divorce and family law firms. Kim has a 10.0 “Superb” rating on Avvo.com and has also been selected for the honor of Washington Super Lawyers®. Kim has a reputation for putting her clients’ needs first and protecting what matters most to them.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ajibola O. Oladapo
Bellevue, WA Family Law Lawyer with 15 years of experience
(425) 217-6299
2018 156th Ave NE
Building F, Suite 100
Bellevue, WA 98007
Family and Immigration
California Western School of Law
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Sarah Elizabeth Hovland
Everett, WA Family Law Lawyer with 15 years of experience
Family and Divorce
University of Warwick School of Law and Gonzaga University School of Law
Sarah is a person (who happens to also be an attorney) fueled by compassion, curiosity, and the desire to see justice prevail. She started her path towards the legal profession at age 7 when she negotiated her first deal: to stay up past her bedtime. She did not win. Several decades later, she applied this and many other life lessons to the practice of law. In her spare time, you can find Sarah at the local dog park trying and failing to get her dog to fetch a tennis ball, playing on the water, listening to music, traveling around this...